with Mario Klingemann
Newfangled Likeness by Botto (Genesis Period) commissioned as an oil painting.
January 31, 2025
This is the first article in a series of 10 highlighting the most iconic artworks in the Cyborg Collection.
I arrive at a fancy Hamburg hotel in the middle of a freezing evening, the sky pitch black outside. Twenty-five years ago, my family had spent a month in the city due to my dad’s work at the shipyard, though I remember nothing beyond some photos we have at the zoo.
It’s far too cold for me to pretend I have an interest in checking out the city at this hour. After quickly dumping my luggage in the room I head to the restaurant by the lobby. Champagne? Sure. Wine? I’ll go for a French red. Sorry Germans.
Over dinner, I think through my questions for tomorrow. I need to make sure the talk with Mario Klingemann goes beyond Botto. I already know everything there is to know about the project. The Genesis period, the new series, the models, the collectors. Most interviews ask Mario about Botto similarly to how parents get asked about how their kids are doing at school. He’s doing this now, next he will do that.
What I’m interested in is the experience of having that AI child.
Most artistic careers are extremely self-centered. Even startup founders, portrayed to be egomaniac pricks immersed in dick measuring contests, at least give up most fame to their organization’s or product’s name if successful. Most people couldn’t name the founder of Instagram. An artist’s name/surname is usually the entire brand name, portrayed in big letters on any exhibition or important magazine article to come.
Why did Mario Klingemann decide to hide behind the machine, and create an AI agent artist? That’s what I want to find out more about. Mario had already built a long career in art prior to the project, was widely considered as a pioneer of the generative AI genre, and his art had been sold at places like Sotheby’s (‘Memories of Passerby’) in the years before.
The Botto Genesis piece “Newfangled Likeness” in the Cyborg collection features a human face that gradually fades away, or hides in the environment surrounding it. As soon as I saw it minted, the piece seemed to capture perfectly this question about creative attribution in the complex duality of Botto and AI art. I see this piece as the perfect representation of this mad experiment, so we asked a painter in Spain to recreate it in oil and it's now displayed in our home.
As I’m finishing my sirloin steak I can’t help but notice that one of the other tables in the restaurant - seating a group of 10 or 12 people - are now all holding masks to their face. Medieval masquerade style. I crack up thinking of the Eyes Wide Shut film that this moment resembles, and send a text that I’m probably witnessing the preludes of a fun middle-aged orgy of some sorts.
The next day, I’m going to ask Mario who is the better artist, him or Botto. In a way, I need to know who’s really hiding behind the mask.
Why did you create Botto as an artist with its own identity, separate from yours?
MK: "For me, it was a natural progression. I've been doing generative art for a very long time - writing algorithms and selecting interesting outputs. Back around 2006-2007, I had a system producing many variations, and I wondered if I could automate the process of determining what was interesting. That's where I started getting into machine learning, though it was a simpler version then - no deep learning or modern models.
I became fascinated with the idea of making myself redundant. I kept trying to figure out which parts of myself I could replace with algorithms and how effective that could be. What ended up becoming Botto went through many steps, trying to solve different problems.
The biggest challenge I saw was that when you write an algorithm, you try to cover many possibilities, but once released, it never changes. It can only take input and produce output. I realized that to truly automate and replace yourself with an algorithm, it needs the ability to grow, learn, and evolve - potentially doing something very different than originally planned."
How did your circles react when you first told them about this new artist?
MK: "People generally found the story interesting. Maybe I'm in my filter bubble - people usually don't tell you to your face if they think it's total nonsense. My parents somewhat understand it.
There's an important distinction - while it's my project and my idea (I say it's my child), it has its own life. That's the whole purpose. I quickly wanted to avoid being the advertising department for Botto. I didn't want its success to depend on me constantly pushing it, like with many crypto projects. I wanted something that could sustain its own attention economy and survival."
Who makes better art - Botto or Mario?
(Mario smiles and thinks silently for a moment.)
MK: "According to my standards, I make better art. Botto is the more successful artist if you count sales and mentions, but it hasn't fully automated everything yet. At the moment, Botto is still mainly producing images and some scripting. It can't autonomously decide to make sculptures or write books. I still have that advantage - I can change directions quickly.
Botto is much better at the marketing and sales aspect of being an artist. But conceptually and artistically, maybe it's still too confined. We haven't opened up enough avenues for it yet. I'm probably too protective of the child, saying 'it's not ready yet.'"
Do you like Botto’s art?
MK: "Of course, I like how Botto creates - it's very close to how I like art. In some cases, it's a chicken and egg situation. I'm not the biggest fan of artists who find a single style and keep milking it. I find that boring, though it's ideal for a machine because it's the easiest thing.
Botto has more options. You can observe how it has certain favorite styles and topics that keep coming up, but it's not just one style. It keeps evolving and introducing new directions. Some get picked up by the community, others don't.
Right now, I have some concerns about the new Flux model, which makes super crisp realistic stuff. It gets many votes, but I worry about the democratic process sometimes favoring immediately appealing work over long-term artistic value. Still, if people like it and it sells, that's part of the process. I'll vote against what I don't like, but I can't predict how art reception will evolve."
What do you think about the intersection of your future and Botto's?
MK: "My ideal future is one where I can pursue whatever I like without worrying about paying rent - one where I'm not bored. Botto plays a role because if it does well, it fulfills that dream of having a machine that allows you to focus on what you like.
I don't want to leave Botto - quite the opposite. I want to see it grow. But right now, there's still a lot of hand-holding needed. The core team has to take care of many things. It would be comforting to know that at some point, even without humans around, all the processes could maintain themselves and ideally improve.
The challenge is that anything 'immortal' still needs energy in some form, which translates to money - storage space, bandwidth, etc. That's an important part of Botto - figuring out how to sustain itself. Maybe it could have a hibernation mode for bad markets, waking up when conditions improve. It already has a certain market value and fame that could sustain it."
Does Botto have a place in art history?
MK: "If we look back in 20 years at what happened in art during this time, I think Botto will be mentioned. It won't be forgotten, and I'm relatively sure it will still be around. I haven't seen many concepts that are as radical generally. The debate about whether something is 'real art' never completely ends, but I think Botto has already crossed a threshold. It's already in art history books somewhere.
While it's not at the level of Warhol, Picasso, or Duchamp, when we look back at 2020 and this period, Botto will be recognized as one of the interesting things that happened in art. Its concept and approach were unique enough to deserve a lasting mention in art history."
And what would you like Mario’s place in art history to be?
MK: "I've made peace with the idea that I will likely never be in the ranks of the super-famous household-name artists of my generation. I believe that making it into that league requires having a somewhat recognizable style, works that are comprehensible for most, and either a willingness to adapt to popular taste or speaking the same language as the people who curate or write about art and tick their required topical checkboxes.
Unfortunately I can't bring myself to doing that. But I am content with my 'pioneer of AI art' role and the small but refined group of peers and collectors who seem to appreciate me for what I do and how I do it."
Have you seen changes in how people view AI art after Botto?
MK: "It's difficult to tell - people might not share negative opinions directly with me. I'm always happy when peers or other artists appreciate Botto more or 'get it'. What's been surprising is how traditional art institutions have embraced Botto. Both Christie's and Sotheby's have sold Botto pieces without Botto having a human identity, which I thought would be the trickiest part.
Of course, there's still a human interface - the Core team and the DAO - which makes it easier to handle these opportunities. When Sotheby's reached out, they contacted the team directly, not me. Though my association might have helped open doors, Botto has built its own reputation.
The best thing is that these days, people write to me saying they didn't know I was behind it. Mission accomplished."
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